Speaker 1: This KRN program is proudly supported by HEB.

Speaker 2: Welcome to foundation, the black church in San Antonio.

I'm your host, Tommy Calvert over the next half hour.

We'll look at the history of the black church in our city, what it meant to the black community, how it raised the issue of civil rights in the sixties, why women were and are the backbone of the black church and why current research is yielding more information about this important history.

But first I'll look back at the very early churches of San Antonio.

We hear from historian, author, activists and UTS professor Mario solace on why the church was so important.

Speaker 1: The African-American church was always a place where people, it was a survival place.

It was a place where you could literally emotions go.

It was a place where you could pray and hope for justice.

It was a place where you could actually get involved in some sort of struggle for freedom, which means what the civil rights struggle.

So out of that condition of slavery, there came the idea that the church is a center piece in the struggle for freedom three, Paul Methodist, uh, colored churches, as it was called.

At one time, it was the oldest at about 175 years old, strong presence in terms of addressing the issues of after slavery and Friedman and how they were trying to get their civil rights.

Um, and it became a very interesting church because they fought very hard, uh, for civil rights, um, Mack Henson, the pastor there, uh, actually created the nonpartisan city council politics we have today.

Oftentimes they would have to hide what they were doing because they would be talking about freedom even at the church service.

And if they were allowed to have church service on a plantation, it was heavily monitored by the overseer.

So they couldn't talk too much about the new Testament, which talks about peace and justice and love.

They had to talk about the old Testament, which was somewhat related to accepting slavery as your condition.

So the slave master would pick what parts of the Bible black could learn from, and then hide the rest.

So they would go into the woods and hear the rest.

Many of them also knew it just by secretly, uh, reading in or studying it.

I learned how to read and write secretly because someone friendly to them, sometimes the white person, or sometimes a black person who was going to violate the role, the laws of racial etiquette and teach a black person to read your rights.

Pastors, oftentimes during slavery.

And even after we often pick sections of the Bible that said, here's what they didn't want you to know about.

That God is no respecter of persons that became the whole thing about Wolf.

God, doesn't respect persons.

Then this slave masters knowing more important than I am.

It gave them a dimension, um, for action, a dimension for speaking, truth to power against the slave system against, and then the Jim Crow later on after after reconstruction.

Uh, so it gave them, uh, a biblical source, um, to be inspired, to fight for their freedom.

Speaker 2: We're joined by Reverend Dr. Kenneth Kemp of the Antioch Baptist church.

Dr. Kim, thank you for joining us.

My pleasure.

Thank you for inviting me.

We know that the black community in San Antonio is a minority within a minority.

So how important is the black church?

Well, the black church is, uh, so important that it's a level of importance can not be, can not be adequately expressed.

Uh, people need, uh, fellowship.

Uh, they need to be able to, uh, come to a place where they feel comfortable and of course they need to be able to worship their God.

And so, uh, the church, uh, has an immeasurable impact upon the people of, uh, of, of San Antonio.

And of course upon the people of the, of these United States and the world, Your predecessor, Reverend Thurman Walker was the founder of the community of churches for social action.

And they took a stand against the Alamo community college district.

That changed the way the establishment looked at the black church forever.

Tell us a little bit about that.

Well, um, the Alamo community colleges district vote at that time would have taken nursing education assets from St Phillips college, uh, out to the medical center area where it would have been difficult for people, uh, in the inner city to, to, um, to access that education.

So he, with several other leaders determined that the best thing to do was to vote it down, send it back and do it right.

That's exactly what happened.

And as a result of that, uh, that influence was parlayed into further influence essentially into, uh, bringing about, um, the Wheatley high sports complex as a result of the community venues bond that, uh, happened, uh, uh, subsequent to that, that, uh, event.

Yeah, It was a big ch conversations change and even led to the Reverend Thurmond Walker bibliotech library, a block or two down the street from the church Several years later, when, uh, bibliotech became part of, of, of, uh, what was happening in San Antonio.

Um, um, uh, I think it was a very great idea for, for judge Wolf and, uh, the commissioner's court to determine that, uh, uh, the bibliotech be named for pastor ether, Walker, Antioch has developed a housing development, Antioch village.

It has developed a school.

It has developed things for the community.

Tell us how the church is responding to the needs of the community.

Well, at Antioch we've always felt that it was extremely important to be involved in community, uh, underpass, the JJ rector, um, the HUD development known as any village, uh, occurred.

And I think greatly impacted our community.

Uh, pastor Walker of course, did a number of things with community, including ganging up for Jesus, uh, community of churches with social action, the Antioch community transformation network, all of that was, um, um, geared toward making sure that our community, uh, is enhanced and that the church exists, uh, not simply for faithful worship, which is our first focus, but also, um, to impact beyond the four walls of the church.

Thank you, Dr. Kim for coming on.

S H James of second Baptist church became the first black city Councilman in 1965 and introduced the ordinance to desegregate San Antonio.

He also became president of the progressive national Baptist convention.

The progressive Baptist convention started because Baptists were suffering from an identity crisis, fostered by racism and conservative political policies and practices that supported segregation and us apartheid.

The progressive national Baptist convention was the denominational home of Reverend Martin Luther king, Jr.

The formation of the convention was wrapped up in the civil rights movement.

Reverend James would send his 12 year old daughter across town to integrate Jefferson high school, Reverend Claude black of Mount Zion.

First Baptist church worked with a Phillip Randolph, Thurgood Marshall and Martin Luther king.

In 1966.

He was invited by LBJ to participate in the white house conference on civil rights.

He faced threats, including his home being shot at in 1974.

Black supported the efforts of the San Antonio branch of the student nonviolent coordinating committee Snick after a massive demonstration against police brutality in downtown San Antonio and an armed attack at the Snick office at that time, Mario Salis was a member of Snick, Mr. Solace, good to have you here.

Speaker 1: Glad to be here and very happy.

Not Speaker 2: Every minister in San Antonio was on board with the civil rights movement.

Tell us how it really was at that time.

Speaker 1: Well, quite frankly, the black church across course across the country has always been a place of worship.

It's been a place of emotional stability, but also a place of resistance at anytime you have people questioning the status quo, you're going to have those who support that resistance and those opposed to it for any number of reasons, some of which are economic, some of which bribery you might say, at least on a social level.

So we were confronted with two paradigms, one being those that opposed to what we were doing, and those who supported us, those who supported us very small number, um, the, those that opposed us also a small number.

So the greater majority though, they were very silent, did support the efforts of Reverend Claude black and the efforts of the student nonviolent coordinating committee to have a free breakfast program, for example, and to continue their fight for police accountability.

This was way back in the sixties.

So yes, we had a problem with those who supported, uh, the movement for civil rights, human rights, uh, and those who did not.

So, um, it was a dichotomy of sorts because we were attacked on several levels, uh, by those who were opposed to what we were doing.

And of course, you know, we were called radicals, whatever that meant at the time, uh, we were too confrontational.

We were accused of being too confrontational, but confrontation is the only thing that was going to change the system in any way.

And you might say that that still is applicable even to this day.

So there, there are many other things that one could talk about in reference to this.

Reverend Claude black was the foremost civil rights preacher in San Antonio.

He was not by himself.

Of course, river dykes with the Methodist church was also very helpful.

It tried to stone was Reverend CC Houston, and there were others, not just them, there were others.

And they were very supportive of what we were doing in our fight for civil and human rights.

So it's complicated and it gets complicated because we were attacked.

It, we, we, people didn't like what we were doing river black received some criticism within his own membership of what we were doing.

So, um, but he was strong enough to overcome that.

And he had that background, which was given to him by pastors from the past, who knew that the fight for civil and human rights and a struggle against racism was something that all black people have to understand if not embrace understand.

And so he was very much concerned about those who opposed what we were doing.

So it's a complicated question and one that, uh, gosh, I, I never forget some of it.

I never forget going to a few churches and actually being told to leave because we were too radical.

Uh, and then, uh, and some churches, because our members, the women in our membership had on pants.

They couldn't wear pants at some of these churches.

Um, and so they were told, we were told to leave.

So in other cases, the pastor was more than welcome us.

Um, and didn't care about the Gresh, but concerned with the message.

And of course that message was one for civil and human rights.

So, um, it, it got complicated and we were working against the established norms of today within the black church, understanding that the church is a place of worship.

It's also a place of forgiveness forgiving.

It's also a place of understanding that this struggle against racism, which is based on skin color as one that affects every African-American in one form or another.

And many people could tell you then as now that skin color is a reason why they have been treated so badly.

So understanding that people in the black church understood that in general, even though they may not have been as vocal.

Uh, and so that's important when we were, uh, had the problem with the police, our office, Reverend club, black was one of the first to denounce what they had done.

He was one of the first because that, that demonstration of protest was based on the killing of Bobby, Joe Phillips, who was killed in 1968, beaten to death by the police in San Antonio.

And, um, Reverend black was one of the first to go to city council, uh, to be there speaking against that particular incident, uh, and in favor of justice for Bobby Joe Phillips.

So this big demonstration downtown, uh, was, uh, uh, a call for justice for Bobby Joe Phillips.

And then later, uh, it was also, um, in, in the armed attack against the, uh, the Schnick office, um, was the result of the protest of the murder of Bobby, Joe Phillips by police.

Speaker 2: Thank you very much for joining us.

Women of faith have stood strong and supportive the church women like mama D the great pianist from Antioch missionary Baptist church distinguish matriarchs like Ruby, our shield, who also played organ and piano for her preacher husband, Reverend R L our shield, and many others who led Sunday.

Schools served as church clerks, vacation, Bible, school teachers, secretaries, and mission workers.

Some took the lessons of the pulpit to fight for their communities like Lily Wilson, Harris, and joy McGee, who fought to keep Sam Houston high school, the east side's only high school from being closed.

And then there are great female theologians like Bishop Sarah Davis of the AME church, Bishop Rosa Wilson, and our next guest, Reverend Dr. Claudia Copeland, Dr. Copeland has been featured in gospel today.

Essence magazine, faith magazine, and an Ebony magazine as one of the 15 notable women preachers in the nation, Dr. Copeland was included in the Smithsonian Institute exhibit speak to my heart communities of faith and contemporary African-American lives.

She made history as the first woman to offer the keynote address to the national Martin Luther king, Jr. Commemorative March in a major urban venue, addressing over 80,000 people in San Antonio.

I'm honored to be joined by Dr. Claudette Copeland.

Dr. Copeland women in the church have had to deal with so many issues because of racism, the way families have been torn apart, that justice system.

What do you hear from women in the church as some of their top issues, Speaker 1: As one who has for probably 50 years been in this conversation, women understand.

I think that God has always spoken from the margin to the page that God has always spoken as it were from the isle of Patmos to the mainland, from the marginalized community to the quote empowered community.

So what's happening with that and ongoing, uh, widening revelation that, uh, God uses whom God chooses for for years, women submerged their callings in Sunday school teaching or, uh, uh, music or the kind of leading from a second chair position.

And, and it moved us along and it blessed the church.

And you said something very important.

You said women took the lessons of the pulpit to transform, but in this hour, women are not just taking the lessons of the pulpit.

They're taking the pulpit and their voices are being heard with clear leadership with unapologetic leadership.

And, and they are catching spaces of our generation who have been injured by male leadership who come out of situations where they would never come again to the church because of the kind of male mishandling that has been there a lot.

So what's happening, great things are happening.

Great things are happening on a one side doors are locked, but as mama said, if the door is locked, go around and come in the window.

And we still come in and we do God's work.

Speaker 2: Your church was part of an early migration that began.

Most people think of black churches on the east side to the Northeast side, which it now stretches all the way into Guadalupe county with churches like resurrection Baptist church.

Uh, tell us a little bit about whether you think east side churches that have a black population, can they survive on the east side?

Speaker 1: Our church did not begin with the east side population.

We were planted there from basically a military mindset on the north side of San Antonio, when very few African-Americans and people of color live there to answer your question.

The east side of San Antonio has probably has probably, um, melded from the traditional thinking of us being pocketed.

There will churches survive.

The church always survives, but it's survives perhaps with a different, uh, different geography with a different assignment to bless their neighborhoods in their areas.

The churches survive, but differently Speaker 2: The way black preaching, black music, and even the ministries are different than a lot of folks who may not be black may realize.

Can you just take someone who may not have been to a black church into a, the differences that are found in black Speaker 1: Churches, depending on the door you come in, may, you may see the sign of the cross, and you may see a high church and, and beautiful symbolism in the liturgy.

And you may see folks doing the holy the answer running around the church.

You may see what they call Dr. Watts hymns being lined.

That is the beauty and the richness of our tradition.

And it does America a disservice to think that we're simply one broad stroke of something.

Speaker 2: Well, thank you, Dr. Copeland for all you've contributed and being a part of this program.

Dr. Charles Gentry from the university of Texas at San Antonio joins us.

He's been working in the center for cultural sustainability to find historical markers of African-American history.

Dr. Gentry, thank you for joining us.

Thank you for having me.

So there are many places that are unmarked, the Baptist settlement, the St. James AME, African Methodist Episcopal church.

Tell us about some of the interesting markers that you're working on.

Speaker 1: Uh, w there are a few historical markers Speaker 2: Around the city of San Antonio, but there can be many more of, uh, African-American historical sites and, uh, places that, uh, preserve our legacy and history here in San Antonio.

Uh, one of the recent discoveries that many people are just finding out about, uh, are the archaeological, uh, findings of the foundation of the St. James AME church, uh, that was founded in, uh, the, uh, yeah, middle of the 19th century.

It's one of the earliest, uh, African-American, uh, churches and historic sites in San Antonio.

And that foundation in the San Pedro Creek, uh, cultural park, uh, was, uh, discovered in, uh, the developments that are happening there.

And we're going to have an opportunity to tell that history and to tell that story and to place some markers there so that people can learn more when they go down to visit the San Pedro Creek cultural park about, uh, African-American history and the importance of the church, uh, in that time period.

And, uh, we can think of the church as one of the real important pillars of the black community, uh, in the post emancipation period.

We can think of th the, the church and the school, and both of these are really important parts.

And the leaders in those, uh, institutions of the church and the school art, and some important figures that we'll get to, to tell more stories about one of the figures that we're looking at, um, is, uh, James, who is, uh, one of the early, uh, pastors of the second Baptist church.

It was originally, and the Baptist settlement neighborhood, uh, which is, uh, located what is now near what is now Hemisfair park.

Uh, but there was also an important grocery store there.

And so we are establishing a, uh, we've, uh, submitted an application to the Texas historical commission for registered Texas historic landmark, uh, for that site, uh, in the old Baptist settlement neighborhood.

And also another site for store that was in the Denver Heights neighborhood.

What this will give us an opportunity to do is not only to establish the location of that store, but also to tell the story about the larger neighborhood, the Baptist settlement, uh, neighborhood, which is one of the earliest, uh, communities, and one of the earliest neighborhoods where black people were able to settle in.

And they're near, uh, downtown San Antonio, which was one of these sites of the original second Baptist church, but also the Mount Zion Baptist church, which, um, survived, uh, a big flood in the 1860s there at a suburban Mountain.

Sinai also had a connection with their pastor and friendship Baptist church, which was in CUNY, uh, elementary school, CUNY being one of the only African-Americans who was on the state board of education and friendship had to move after a fire as well.

Right.

That's right.

Um, and, uh, th these are some of the, uh, things that we are going to be able to, uh, tell the story about a little more deeply once we establish, uh, the, uh, historic landmark designation.

And, um, I think that what's important about that is that, uh, when people visit, uh, these neighborhoods, these sites, if they go down to let's say Hemisfair or south town, as they're exploring the neighborhood, they'll get to see some of the, uh, histories and legacies of the African-American community, which, uh, I think, uh, not enough people appreciate, uh, how, uh, deep and, and why the African-American presence was in San Antonio, not only in the late 19th century, but going into the early 20th Century.

Yeah.

The black population was much bigger, uh, think almost a double what it is now due to slavery, uh, the Baptist settlement.

Any thoughts about why, uh, the Baptist had such a prominent name and role in the early church history?

Well, uh, it's W it was one of the fastest growing, uh, uh, denominations, uh, in the post-match patient period, uh, in addition to the, uh, the AME African Methodist Episcopal, uh, denomination.

And, uh, you know, we mentioned St. James, uh, in the, uh, San Pedro Creek, uh, cultural park area.

So when the Baptist settlement neighborhood, uh, we get the second Baptist and we get the, um, uh, Mount Zion Baptist.

And, uh, these are, uh, two of the, uh, churches that are foundational in the black community.

And we also had a connection between the CUNY school that's there and the grocery store that's there, uh, that was owned and operated by PF Roberts.

Yeah.

And GJ Sutton was the, uh, I S I'm sorry.

He was the principal at Douglas.

Uh, Well, J Sutton was, uh, also a, a, um, an educator who was a principal at, uh, the, the Douglas school.

And he would, uh, uh, PF Roberts would also teach at that school as well.

Well, thank you, Dr. Gentry for that incredible history, we look forward to the markers and learning so much more about San Antonio's great rich history.

And we want to thank you for joining us.

Please note, we have extended versions of these interviews along with more information about the AME church foundation at San Pedro culture park online at dot org slash black church.

We want to thank our sponsors, including HEB for their help in putting this program on the air here at kale RN until next time I'm Tommy Calvert take care Program is proudly supported by HEB.